Jewish group at odds with LDS Church over temple work for ancestors


Story Comments Share
Updated: 11/10/2008 7:23 pm | Published: 11/10/2008 12:49 pm
LDS temple baptismal font (ABC 4 News)
LDS temple baptismal font (ABC 4 News)
"We do not ask for, or want your love. We ask you to respect us and our Judaism just as we respect your religion. ... We ask you to leave our six million Jews, all victims of the Holocaust, alone, they suffered enough." - Ernest Michel
SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - They say the talking is over and they are not happy.  Members of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors say they are done negotiating with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints about baptism for the dead.  The group denounced the LDS Church and its policy on Monday during news conference on 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Nazi-incited riots against Jews.
 
Ernest Michel, honorary chairman of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, said talks with LDS leaders are over. "We do not ask for, or want your love," Michel's prepared message to Mormon leaders read. "We ask you to respect us and our Judaism just as we respect your religion. We ask you to leave our six million Jews, all victims of the Holocaust, alone, they suffered enough."
 
Michel accused the Church of not keeping its word in preventing Holocaust victims from being submitted to the its genealogical database and demanded the Church, “Undo what has been done.”
  
“The LDS Church has been true to its word,” said Elder Lance B. Wickman of the First Quorum of Seventy, “We have done everything that we said we would do.”  It is in reference to a Memorandum of Understanding with Jewish leaders made in 1995 where the Church agreed not to posthumously baptize Holocaust victims unless they are descendants of LDS members.
 
Elder Wickman said in the past 14 years the Church has removed 43,000 Holocaust victim's names from the Church's genealogical database.  “42,000 of those were identified by the Church,” he said.
 
William Tumpowski, President of the United Jewish Federation of Utah believes a dialogue with the LDS Church should be kept open. “You do not do that by passing a blanket statement, ‘We stop taking,’ that's the end of conversation. I don't believe that's appropriate.”

However, Tumpowski also believes more should be done to prevent Holocaust victims from ending up in the LDS Church's database. “It is unacceptable to have posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims.”  He said the issue of the Holocaust and those who died are held sacred in the Jewish community just as ordinances in LDS temples are sacred to Mormons. “The prospect of them being used for other purposes, for other religious motivations is a source of discomfort.”
 
Elder Wickman said about the ordinance of baptism for the dead; “Our work is akin to offering a prayer for someone. When the prayer is offered of someone else’s faith doesn’t change the background or life story for whom it’s offered… They are not baptized into our church… ours is an offering of love to be freely accepted or rejected by those who live beyond the veil… We would not want our doctrine to be thought of in any way as an infringement upon dishonoring the lives of those who perished in the Holocaust.”
 
The LDS Church has removed 260,000 names since 1995. In 2005 an independent researcher claimed to have found resubmissions and new entries of Holocaust victims to the database.  Church officials say a new version of the database – called: New Family Search - will prevent the names of Holocaust victims from being added to the new database in the future.

LDS Church Statement on Jewish Baptisms for the Dead

Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are very disappointed over statements made in a media advisory from Mr. Ernest Michel, honorary chairman of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors. The advisory announced a press event on Monday, 10 November, in New York.

The Church stands by its word. It has no intention of performing baptisms or other rites in its temples for Holocaust victims, except in the very rare instances where such people may have living descendants who are members of the Church. Such exceptions were noted and agreed to in 1995. The understanding reached in 1995 determined that the Church would remove Holocaust names from its public database immediately, which the Church has done. It further said that Jewish groups would provide to the Church any names that reappeared on the database so the Church could remove them. The Church cannot understand why Mr. Michel has refused now to provide those names to the Church so the Church can maintain the spirit of that 1995 understanding.

The media advisory also claimed that Church leaders had refused to meet and “broke off negotiations in July. “ This is absolutely false. Church leaders met with Mr. Michel in New York on 3 November, along with representatives of other respected Jewish community organizations. The Church’s written response to Mr. Michel and to that meeting is found here. It did not receive a reply.

Church leaders and members empathize with the depth of feeling of all Jews regarding the Holocaust. Such regard and empathy have motivated the Church to remain in talks about this subject for so many years. However, with his press conference, Mr. Michel seems to have unilaterally terminated those discussions and has presumably rejected the proposals set forth in the Church’s 6 November 2008 letter. Those steps by Mr. Michel on behalf of the American Gathering were both unnecessary and unfortunate, and belie the long and valued mutual regard that has existed in the past years.


----Information from: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Story Comments Share
12 Comment(s)
Comments: Show | Hide

Here are the most recent story comments.View All

The views expressed here do not necessarily represent those of ABC4

GardenCatFM - 11/16/2008 3:09 PM
0 Votes
Since reading this article, I have learned that the LDS Church was in conversation with this man as late as November 6 and thought the negotiations were coming along fine. The Church had recently introduced The New Family Search program, that makes it harder for people to arbitrarily submit names for baptism without being directly descended from them. This was deliberately put in the program because of the Church's agreement with this man's organization. It seems to me that the Jewish Holocaust Organization are the ones who no longer want to openly talk, not the LDS Church.

margolies - 11/14/2008 9:09 PM
0 Votes
I'm an LDS church member and also of Jewish decent. And I too have direct relatives from the Holocaust so I have followed this issue for many years. At the moment I find myself ashamed of Mr. Ernest Michel of taking such a divisive and self serving stance. He seems to make no effort at honesty nor any concern for the discontent he is agitating among two groups who traditionally have gotten along very well. In short it seems he wants a fight, wants to enflame, and create hate where cooperation was the order in the past. Shame on him and his blatant manipulation of the press and peoples emotions for self-indulgent gain.

Halwrite - 11/12/2008 12:02 PM
0 Votes
As a Jew with close ties to members of the Mormon church, I have no doubt that the church is sincere in its efforts to remove names of posthumously baptised Holocaust victims from its data base, nor do I doubt its efforts to avoid new vicarious baptisms of Holocaust victims. There is, however, a very sad "tone deafness" to the explanations given for those baptisms that have taken place. Jews have lived a lifetime declining to be baptised by Christians and multitudes have, throughout time, died rather than be baptised at the point of a sword. Jews with even a rudimentary sense of history know the price their forbears have paid to be true to their faith. What may be a sacred rite to Mormons, with respect to posthumous baptism of Holocaust victims, is, nonetheless, a sacrilege to most Jews who lost loved ones in the Nazi horror. Why in the world is that so hard to understand, and why would anyone want to tread, no matter how well intentioned, on such sorrowful and painful ground. Hal Gershowitz, author: "Remember This Dream"

hthalljr - 11/11/2008 10:29 PM
1 Vote
Moses and Elijah were great prophets. Did all Israel obey them? Can we expect more of President Thomas S. Monson? But the Church has clearly stated its policies to its members and has gone to great efforts to take corrective action when it discovers violations thereof. And it is spending millions to develop a new online system, the "new FamilySearch," which will finally make make member submissions more traceable and accountable. Considering the complexity of the family tree of man, it is no surprise that the system is about three years behind schedule. At his advanced age, it is understandable that Michel is impatient, but the Church really is making a good-faith effort to respect Jewish sensibilities. I do commend the United Jewish Federation of Utah for its patience in the matter. http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705262336,00.html Interestingly, the Church officially discriminates against its members who have Jewish ancestry. Mormons of "gentile" extraction are permitted to submit ordinances for any deceased relative who was born more than 95 years ago. However, Mormons of Jewish ancestry are supposed to submit ordinances only for direct-line ancestors and are also supposed to submit these to Church headquarters for prior approval. Please, everyone, please understand that Mormons do not "posthumously baptize" anyone. Freedom of choice - the moral agency of man -- is a fundamental principle of Mormonism, and we believe that the spirits of men retain their moral agency after death. One cannot choose between apple pie and pumpkin pie unless both can be had. Accordingly, we work diligently to "bake the pie" for everyone who has ever lived, although we understandably work hardest for our own ancestors. Nobody, nobody, forces anybody, living or dead, to eat the pie. It is those who want to take the pie away who are trying to force their will on others. http://hthalljr.googlepages.com/choice.html Tracy Hall Jr hthalljr'gmail'com

carolm62 - 11/11/2008 3:29 PM
1 Vote
The LDS Church has agreed not to perform posthumous baptisms for groups of peoples, such as concentration camp victims and celebrities and such, but individual Mormons are always in the process of finding the names of their own direct relatives an baptizing those. Naturally, holocaust victims will sometimes be included since there are Mormons of Jewish ancestry. I think the direct families of such persons certainly have more say-so in this matter than an unrelated political entity. It should be known that Mormon Doctrine recognizes that all such baptisms are subject to the acceptance or rejection of the deceased individual. In other words, if your deceased Catholic great-great-grandmother is somehow posthumously baptized by the Mormon Church, she does not ever end up on the rolls of the Mormon church. Your g-g-grandmother, up in heaven, has to agree that she wants that baptism to be valid. If she does, great. If she doesn't, no problem.

kd7mxi - 11/11/2008 7:54 AM
1 Vote
How many gods and heavens are there? .... last i checked there was only one .... ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED

kd7mxi - 11/11/2008 7:52 AM
1 Vote
your family wants you to be mormon but you want to be a jew.

kd7mxi - 11/11/2008 7:51 AM
1 Vote
how would you feel if you choose to be a jew and your family said they would dis-own you if you went against there wishes?

mleafty - 11/11/2008 6:04 AM
1 Vote
I find it amazing that Ernest Michel takes the position that he speaks for ALL of the 6 million dead Jews. How many is he directly related to? I would surmise that of those who elected him chairman, are a small percentage of the descendants of the dead Jews. He talks like he was elected by descendants of all 6 million. The LDS Church has taken great effort to keep the names out of their database, but I would imagine there are many converted Jews that are upset that they cannot perform saving ordinances for "Great-Aunts and Uncles", but can't because of no "direct" lineage. I would suggest that they also have rights that Mr Michel is usurping. Mr. Michel seems much more intent on "bomb throwing", then on working out agreements. I think he has another agenda.

crispycrit - 11/10/2008 7:00 PM
1 Vote
If its so ok to baptitize people posthumously then why doesn't the LDS church send me a list of those members who have passed on so i can have them baptized in the Catholic Church, or better yet, a Jewish Temple.. I mean it will be done out of love like the church states they are doing it for the Jews. Has those Elders and of course the unknowning Profit thought about the fact that those poor soles who lost thier lives in the concentration camps died for what they believe in. For being Jewish and not willing to abandon thier beliefs no matter what the cost. So why would they now want to abandon it?! they are being persecuted again! I think that GOD has a much more special place in heaven for those souls then any place you morons could give them. If your God would turn them away after what they went thru, then I don't want to be part of his Heaven anyway. Hitler Persecuted the Jews now the LDS Church is doing it again because they are forcing thier ignorant beliefs on those who dont even have a chance to speak out.
Are you having trouble receiving ABC 4? Before you fill out a trouble report below, try these troubleshooting steps first.
  1. Disconnect the antenna from the box or digital TV.
  2. Rescan the box or digital TV without the antenna connected. As with any scan follow the on-screen instructions or owner’s manual for your device.
  3. Unplug the box or digital TV from the electrical outlet for at least one minute.
  4. Reconnect the antenna to the box or digital TV and plug the unit into the electrical outlet.
  5. Rescan the box or digital TV one more time.
If you are still experiencing problems receiving ABC 4 or CW 30, please fill a reception problem report.

ABC 4 / CW 30 will get in touch with you to help identify the problem.
ABC 4 Poll
Inergize Digital This site is hosted and managed by Inergize Digital.
Mobile advertising for this site is available on Local Ad Buy.